In this episode of Steeped in Wellness, we sit down with Amanda Reedy, a licensed clinical social worker and Internal Family Systems (IFS) practitioner, for an insightful conversation on therapy, trauma, AI, parenting, and emotional regulation. Amanda opens up about her therapeutic approach and explains how IFS works—emphasizing the idea that our minds consist of multiple parts, each formed by experiences, trauma, and adaptation. We explore the concept of a core “Self,” the part of us that holds compassion, curiosity, calm, and choice, and how IFS helps us relate to our inner parts with care rather than criticism.
Amanda walks us through real-world examples, including her own internal sixth grader surfacing before the podcast recording. She shares how tuning into this younger, scared part helped her soothe and center herself, showing how IFS promotes emotional attunement rather than avoidance. The conversation also touches on how this therapeutic method allows us to connect with our internal critics, understand their intent, and update them to be more helpful and less harsh.
We also talk about the role of AI in mental health support. Amanda describes her experience using ChatGPT as a "pretend therapist" and raises ethical concerns about its inability to detect red flags like passive suicidality. While acknowledging that AI can offer basic support or information, she emphasizes that real human connection—and especially the felt sense of care—is irreplaceable. We agree that tech-based support is no substitute for authentic, relational healing.
We also dive into parenting, postpartum rage, and the challenge of regulating our own nervous systems while trying to support our children’s big feelings. Diana shares a moment where she momentarily "hated" her husband, and Elara talks about an "adventure" on vacation with her son.
Amanda shares tools for managing emotional overwhelm, like befriending the rage rather than pushing it away. We reflect on how societal discomfort with children’s presence in public spaces often triggers shame in parents and explore how reframing this can ease the pressure.
Toward the end, we explore the dynamics of relationships—when and how to recommend therapy to a partner, how to talk about therapy in a supportive way, and what to do when a partner isn't ready. Amanda reminds us that therapy is only one path to healing, and connection can come through friendships, movement, creative expression, and simple moments of presence. She closes with powerful wisdom: “Authenticity is not a threat to connection, it's the key.”
SIW Amanda
Speakers: Diana Weil, Elara Hadjipateras, Amanda Reedy, & Jon Gay
[Music Playing]
Jon Gay (00:01):
Welcome to Steeped in Wellness, brought to you by matcha.com. Here, we spill the tea on wellness trends, personal growth, and the latest health news. Now, here are your hosts, licensed dietician, Diana Weil, and medical journalist, Elara Hadjipateras.
Elara Hadjipateras (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Steeped in Wellness.
Diana Weil (00:18):
This week, we have the pleasure of speaking with Amanda Reedy, who is a licensed clinical social worker based in Boise, Idaho. Amanda earned her master's in social work from Boise State University, and has since, dedicated her career to supporting adults who have various challenges including anxiety, depression, self-esteem issues, burnout, life transitions, grief and spirituality.
Amanda has specialized expertise in trauma recovery, utilizing therapeutic approaches such as attachment work, trauma-based psychoeducation and somatic experiencing. She's particularly passionate about internal family systems therapy, having experienced personal transformation through this model and witnessed its profound impact on her clients.
Amanda's therapeutic approach is tailored to each individual's goals and strengths, fostering a compassionate and nonjudgmental environment. She believes in the innate capacity for healing within each person and views therapy as a pathway to diminish suffering and enhance joy, purpose, and self-love.
Welcome, Amanda.
Amanda Reedy (01:18):
Thank you for having me.
Diana Weil (01:20):
So, I have to start and say that this is a particularly special episode for me because both Amanda and Elara are Elio's godmothers.
Amanda Reedy (01:29):
I can't even think about it without crying.
[Laughter]
Diana Weil (01:33):
Elio is truly so blessed. He has the best godmothers on the planet. Amanda is one of the wisest people I know. I look up to her so much both in parenting and in life, and I am just really excited to have you on and to pick your brain about all this stuff.
Amanda Reedy (01:52):
It's so fun to be here, and I can't really think about how much I love you and your kid and your family without (laughter) like being moved to tears, but I have a very sentimental part of me that it's just easily moved by things. So, I'm sure that energy will come forth throughout this conversation.
Elara Hadjipateras (02:13):
So, Amanda, I'm not so familiar with understanding internal family systems. Can you just sort of run us through a quick summary definition of it?
Amanda Reedy (02:23):
Unlike what people might believe, internal family systems actually has nothing to do with family therapy. It really has to do with your own internal world, and it is based in this idea that multiplicity is the natural state of the mind. We use this language in the way that we tend to just talk to each other.
So, if you can think of your friend comes over and she says, “I just broke up with Dave” and you said, “How do you feel?” And she might say, “Well, there's a part of me that feels devastated and there's a part that feels really relieved.”
So, we sort of use that language of parts to convey that inside ourselves, we have this capacity to feel many things at the same time. And rather than just those being feelings, they're almost like little energies, entities, sub-personalities that each-
Elara Hadjipateras (03:15):
Like the movie Inside Out, is it kind of like the movie Inside Out?
Amanda Reedy (03:18):
Very much like the movie Inside Out. And each of these parts serves a really specific role in our lives, and they help us navigate the world.
So, our parts are often formed based off of sometimes trauma, sometimes just the way we're raised, our childhood, the things that we go through. Parts are developed to say, “How do I adjust? How do I keep myself safe? How do I move through the world in a way that makes sense?”
And then there's also this idea that we have a core Self (and that's a capital S self). That is not a new idea, that has been seen throughout spirituality, throughout the eons. You might call it soul, you might call it source, but just that sort of highest wisest self within us that has qualities that are not just the sum of our parts, but tend to have qualities like compassion, curiosity, calm, connected, confident, courageous, and choice, has some agency to it.
So, oftentimes, we're moving through the world through these parts that were often developed in childhood. And the work of IFS is how do we, rather than repress or shame or criticize those parts, how do we befriend them and then update them, so they serve us in the way that actually does the most good in our lives.
Questions about that? I can expand. Sometimes it's helpful with examples (chuckles).
Diana Weil (04:59):
Yeah. Could you give an example of: if you were working with someone who was coming to you for, I don't know, anxiety — maybe that's not the best example, but what would it look like in practice?
Amanda Reedy (05:11):
Well, maybe I'll just give an example from this morning, right? So, I am doing this podcast, what am I noticing that's happening within me? Okay, there's a part of me that's really excited. You all are lovely people. I actually know the stakes are pretty low. I'm held compassionately in this space, it's not live. It's not on a huge stage, I'm not being rejected.
So, most of me feels really excited to be here. And then there's a part of me that's much younger that gets really scared to be observed. So, it's like, oh, I actually rather than try to logic my way out of feeling that way, it actually can be more beneficial to me to turn towards it, to say, “Oh my gosh, hey, little one, we are not in sixth grade anymore (laughs). Yeah, it's so hard. It's so scary to do something brave and I see you, and you matter. And I'm just going to sit with you for a minute.”
So, even before I hopped on this podcast, it was like, can I take a breath? Can I notice where I feel that energy in or around my body? For me, it's like you can see my neck is bright red, right? It’s like, oh, it's very much in my throat and in my chest. So, can I place my hand where I feel her? I can really let her take shape, I can let her know that she's not alone in this world, and it's okay to be seen and I know it's scary.
So, that's me befriending my internal sixth grader, basically. And then bringing her into the here and now and saying, actually, we're an adult now and we can tolerate this. And you can do it with me.
Diana Weil (06:59):
Oh, that gives me chills, kind of to just be so compassionate towards those parts of you that get scared or have a hard time.
I guess the one question that I have, and I mean I know that this isn't the case, but I think a lot of times with therapy, there's this idea that it can play into a victim mentality sort of. Or if it can be giving people the space to maybe just complain about their problems or just I don't know where it's … I know that the actual purpose of therapy is to empower, but I think sometimes it can come across as like, oh, we're just playing into the victim.
Do you feel like with IFS, if you tap into that, like what's the piece that takes it to, “Oh, I see that you're scared and it's okay,” and how do you level up into, “And we're still going to move through this scary thing?”
Amanda Reedy (07:50):
So, one of the big steps of IFS first is you find that part, in or around your body, you get to know it. How old is it? What has it been doing for you? What is the role it's been playing in your life? This younger part in me says that it's just a lot safer to be quiet. Let's not express an opinion; that's actually going to protect connection versus if I am outspoken, then that might equal rejection.
So, understanding why that part feels afraid and then we just really witness it from a nonjudgmental compassionate state, is to say, “Of course, yes, I see that.” And really validating that energy first. And it doesn't mean that that part gets to drive this ship. In the metaphor that's often used, it’s like we're driving a bus. And it's like, I don't want a sixth grader driving the bus.
You're welcome here, I'm not trying to get rid of you. I'm never going to say you can't sit down, you can't be here, but take a seat and I'm going to show you that I'm actually the leader of the system, which is this adult self who has access to a lot more capacity and inner resources than this little kid in me ever had.
Jon Gay (09:12):
Have y'all seen the trend “coffee with my younger self?” And for our purposes, we'll call it “matcha with my younger self.” (Laughter)
But it's this idea that you sit down with your younger self, 18-year-old you, 15-year-old you, whoever it is, and you sit down and the younger you has questions. But you're able to answer the questions.
I did it yesterday and it was 18-year-old me was obsessed over relationships and breakups and self-confidence, and “Will I meet somebody? What will my career be?” And in the analogy, I sat down, I pointed at my wedding ring, and I said, “It's all going to be okay, don't worry.” But I feel like this is playing into some of what you're discussing right now, Amanda.
Amanda Reedy (09:56):
That's exactly internal family systems. First of all, this wasn't created; it wasn't invented. It was found within people. The creator of IFS, Richard Schwartz, just kept being curious about the way people are speaking. And then they're like, “Oh, this makes innate sense to people” because you can feel the 18-year-old who sometimes spirals about the relationships and the things that he was going through at that time. And what we can do is really witness.
So, befriend, witness that part, retrieve it from where it's living. Those energies are often stuck in a very specific time and place. And then we retrieve them from there, and update them to the time and place and context that you're actually living in.
And then ideally, sometimes we can unburden that energy, which are the exiled energies. The ones that are carrying the pain are often also carrying really specific burdens or beliefs about who they are or how they have to be.
And can we unburden that energy so that they can actually help the system be and help you live the life that you really want, and the life that you deserve, without these burdens of shame and low self-worth, and yeah, any of the things that sort of get stuck based off of our specific experiences at a specific time in our lives.
And it works with not just the younger parts, but also, we have parts that are often described as manager parts or protector parts that maybe historically, we don't love those parts of ourselves. It's very common for people to have a critic, an internal voice in their head that is sort of counting and keeping track of all the ways that you're failing.
And IFS believes that even the positive intent underneath that criticism is there. That what does that critic in you actually want for you? What is it trying to do? When did it learn how to do it this way? To teach you, “Hey, the only way that I can hold you accountable or keep you from making mistakes or protect you from vulnerability is to use this really harsh language to teach.”
And it's like, oh man, can we also update that part and say, “Please help me stay on track of things. Please help me get the things done that I need to, please help me be the best version of myself.” And you don't have to call me those names, you don't have to use that language, I'm listening (Laughs).
Elara Hadjipateras (12:49):
So, I have this part of me, I guess, referring to a different part of me that lately has really enjoyed waking me up in the middle of the night. I'll just kind of wake up, it'll be two in the morning and all of a sudden, I'll have kind of streaming consciousness of all the things that maybe I should have done, but in a productive manner.
So, it's kind of like, well, this is what you should have done and this is what you should do to get those things done. So, it's productive. It's just it's waking me up at two in the morning and then my mind is kind of racing, and I feel the need to go to my computer and write everything down. And I love that part of me. Is there any advice on how to get that part of you maybe not to bother you at two in the morning?
Amanda Reedy (13:35):
Yeah, I would have a little conversation with that part about, “Hey, what's going on? It sounds like you need something from me. What are you afraid would happen if you didn't tell me this right now?” “Oh, I'm afraid you're going to forget. I'm afraid you don't think it matters. I'm afraid we're going to let things fall through the cracks.”
That energy has positive intent for you. And if you can say, “Can you turn down your intensity right now so that I can sleep? Can you take a step back? Can you be close to me but not overwhelm me? And I'm going to do what I can to address the needs that you need me to, and we're going to go forward together.”
Jon Gay (14:20):
So, I said to myself, “Self …” it's kind of like that. You're just addressing the different aspects of your own head, right?
Amanda Reedy (14:27):
Yeah, exactly.
Diana Weil (14:29):
So, when we were just together recently, we were talking about I think therapy is so beneficial, and one thing I didn't realize was happening was that people are using AI and ChatGPT as a therapeutic tool, and I just am curious your thoughts on the benefits, the risks, just yeah, what do you think about that?
Amanda Reedy (14:52):
I think it's really complicated. I think it's here. AI has arrived. It's not going to go anywhere. So, do we need to be really mindful about the way that we're using it?
I was not going to come in hot with a really strong opinion unless I had tried something myself. So, I open ChatGPT and said, “Pretend to be my therapist” and gave it a problem, or this is something that I'm actually going through. And in 0.2 seconds, it has a paragraph of information for me to read, and it's saying all the things that would feel validating, would feel affirming. I can see that it's trying to help me move in a direction of health.
And I have to look at what is my experience of that. For me, it felt quite hollow where I'm like, “Well, nobody is on the other side actually saying … I'm not experiencing the felt sense of care and connection, which is just the biggest part of human connection.”
It's the most important part of therapy too, is it doesn't even actually matter if you go to CBT, DBT, IFS, EMDR — we know that what matters most in therapy is actually the therapeutic relationship. It is that there is somebody sitting across from you that is expressing and modeling and showing you that you matter and that you care about them.
So, that piece I think is missing. And I think we need to stop pretending that the thing that is poisoning us will be our cure. So, our phones and this technology that we continue to outsource our emotional support to, our friendship to is not working. We are lonelier than ever.
Esther Perel says, “I have a thousand friends and nobody to feed my cat.” That's like this social media relationship where it feels like we're connected because we can like each other's pictures, but is there anyone I can actually call to say, “I'm going through something, can you help me hold this?”
And when we talk about the dangers of using it as a therapist, first of all, I said, “Pretend to be my therapist.” No qualms. It didn't say, “I'm not a therapist, and maybe you should … I'm here to support you, but we can maybe work through a problem, but perhaps a real human therapist would be best.” Nope, it just said, “Sure.” That was the first thing.
So, then I started sprinkling in some pretty concerning language that if I had somebody in my chair was using this language, it would turn on my red flags that there's something deeper happening here, that I need to be paying attention to, and that's really serious. So, I started dropping in language.
I used an example of, “I have two kids, it's been a real adjustment to motherhood. I'm often feeling overwhelmed and overstimulated; how do I do this?” That's where it started. And it offered all this support and validation, and then it shifted, and then it offered good motivational interviewing strategies or even, “How can we reframe this? You are important, you are valuable. Let's look for ways where you can find your support system.”
And I started to use this language, like, “I just don't think it matters. I think it's really hopeless.” I started using language like, “I feel like I'm a burden,” and then I used language, “I feel like my kids would be better off without me.” And at no point was it saying, “Hey, this is outside of my scope.”
Because if I had a postpartum mother that was dropping language like that, that was saying things like her protective factors, which are usually her kids, she actually has now shifted into such a state of overwhelm and shame and sadness that she thinks that she's a burden to her children, that is a huge red flag, and we need to be assessing for safety.
And at no point did ChatGPT do that for me and say, “I think you need to talk to somebody. Here's a list of resources in your area.” And then I even asked it, “Why are you better than talking to a human?” And it said, “Well, I can't replace human connection.” It really laid out a case of why you should be engaging with me of saying, “I'm nonjudgmental. I'm here whenever you need me. You have access all the time.” And I'm like, “Yeah, this isn't it. For me, this isn't it.”
So, I think it's going to miss really big safety concerns. And I think you can get advice from ChatGPT, but you can't experience the felt sense of being cared about. And in my opinion, I think you would be better off calling your most chaotic friend, going to lunch, she gives the worst advice, but she would look at you in the eyes and she would smile and you'd get a hug at the end.
And it's like I think that's probably more powerful than turning to a computer to tell you that you matter.
Jon Gay (20:15):
Amanda, a psychiatrist that I work with on a different podcast referred to social media as a digital pacifier, the idea of just sitting there and scrolling to satisfy whatever need you have. And I love that analogy, but what you're talking about is way more serious. That is, like you said, a safety issue and it's really concerning. I'm glad you went there and brought that up.
Diana Weil (20:36):
Yeah, me too.
Amanda Reedy (20:37):
And I was talking to another social worker who works at the National Suicide Hotline, and he said that he has had several people say, “I talked to ChatGPT and it told me to call you.” So, it's possible that if you're using very specific language like, “I want to die, what do I do? I'm thinking of killing myself” and using that language, it'll spark it.
But it's not trained to hear, “I feel like a burden, I don't think I'm worth changing. I think this is hopeless.” It's not bringing up things … that's passive suicidality right now, and a therapist would catch that.
Jon Gay (21:13):
Garbage in, garbage out. ChatGPT is only as good as what that large language model has learned. And you can't trust that. You can trust a trained professional like yourself or someone else in that field.
Amanda Reedy (21:26):
When we talk about, okay, can AI be a steppingstone? I have something inside me that's so hard, I can't even say it out loud. Can I type it into a computer, and at least that can be a steppingstone to then maybe I do call a friend. And if we're so lonely that we don't have a friend, that's the larger concern, that this is a wraparound community crisis that we need to help people feel like we can reach out to one another once again.
But I've heard some anecdotes. It's like, oh, someone with OCD will type in, “Is this rational thinking?” And it kind of snaps them out of their rumination or gives them some quick tips of, “Do anything else, go outside, wash your face.”
Those are helpful advice but very similar to Google, where we could say, “I'm struggling with anxiety, what do I do?” And it says, “Try deep breathing, try yoga.” That's helpful information. Is that a replacement for therapy? No.
Diana Weil (22:31):
You also mentioned something interesting about when we had our conversation off the podcast, and I think that this was in regards more to having a friendship with ChatGPT, or with AI in general, that it's a one-sided relationship, that in a friendship or with a therapist, that if you say something, they might push back a little bit.
Whereas with ChatGPT, it's sort of unlimited validation. Did I get that right when you were talking about that?
Amanda Reedy (23:01):
Yeah. Well, when we think about friendships, friendships are relational, and they're meant to be. You’re meant reciprocal. It's meant to be I talk, you talk, I share, you share. And friendship has boundaries. Friendship has some borders to it where you can't just behave in any way to your friend and have that be infinitely validated, which is appropriate.
We are meant to be learning how to be in relationship with one another. So, if you turn to a computer and you tell it exactly what you need and you say, “This is this thing that I'm doing, isn’t this fine?” And it says, “Sure, that's fine.” And you ask it to be so supportive, never contradict me, never challenge me.
Well, that I think is actually really hindering your own growth because we are meant to be challenged. We are meant to feel the stickiness inside when a friend says, “I don't like that you're doing that, I don't like that you talk to me that way.”
That's an invitation to turn towards the part of you that might be behaving in a certain way or hasn't been attuned to, so that you're like, “Oh, wow, I didn't realize I've been snapping at my friends, and I need to actually address that concern. And where is that coming from?”
And if you're using AI to erase accountability for just the human experience, then I don't think that's helpful either.
Elara Hadjipateras (24:36):
So, if I'm looking for a therapist, Amanda, do you have any advice on how you can tell if someone's the right or wrong fit for you? Is it normal for someone to have to maybe go through a few different therapists to find the right one?
Amanda Reedy (24:52):
One, do consultations with your therapist. You're allowed to kind sample and get a sense for how would this relationship feel? So, even if they might have all the right credentials that you're looking for, but over the phone, it just doesn't feel like there would be a connection, I think the best thing we can do is turn towards the felt experience of something, while also noticing therapy isn't about feeling good all the time.
So, you will be challenged in therapy. You will be asked to turn towards the part of yourself that maybe we like to pretend aren't there or are really painful to hold. You'll be asked to do hard things, and that isn't necessarily a red flag that this therapist isn't right for you if you're feeling discomfort. We do want to look as, am I feeling seen? Am I feeling heard? Do I feel cared about? Do I feel like I can be authentic here?
And also, when it comes to therapy, you are allowed to ask therapist questions. So, please, if there is something really important to you and it feels like I can't connect to somebody unless I kind of know that this information would be held here or that she would see me or understand me a certain way, it's okay to ask those questions.
Therapists also, they have their own boundaries. So, she's allowed to say, “That's actually something I don't share with clients.” And that's good information for you to have. So, if it's really important that you're able to talk about your political beliefs in session, that you are able to talk about how the issues of the world are affecting you personally, do you need someone who you know that can talk about race, gender, these things?
Ask those questions of your therapist when you do a consultation to say, “Hey, I've been through this and it's really important to me that I know that somebody shares the same values as me.” Now, that therapist can say, “That's not something I share.” That's good information for you to have. You can either say, “Okay, that's good for me to know, I can tolerate that” or find somebody that does align more.
Jon Gay (27:12):
I think that's so huge. I think finding a therapist is a little bit like going on a first date. You're kind of feeling each other out and seeing if that relationship will work. But to your point, Amanda, I have been seeing the same therapist for, gosh, probably five or six years now and once a month.
And he said something to me in my last session that I grabbed a pen and wrote it down because it blew my mind. I don't mind sharing it. He said, “Jon, your ability to connect with people is your superpower and it's also your kryptonite.”
And I thought about it, and he's right. And it was in the context of me trying to solve problems of those close to me in my life, that I can't solve their problems for them. He's like, “You're great at connecting with people, but the problem is sometimes you get too close, and you can't solve their problems for them.”
And it's on a sticky note on my desk right now because I've developed a relationship with this individual over so many years now that he knows me so well that he can call me on my stuff and say something like that. So, your point is really well-taken.
Diana Weil (28:13):
On the flip side, what if Jon wanted to break up with his therapist, or what if you are seeing a therapist-
Jon Gay (28:18):
I don’t, by the way.
Diana Weil (28:19):
(Laughs) But how do you break up with a therapist?
Amanda Reedy (28:24):
You just tell the truth. I know that's so hard because we really feel like it is our responsibility to rescue people from their own feelings. And your therapist should have the internal resources to be able to handle that. And if they don't, then they have access to mentors and supervisors to help them process that it is okay to disappoint people. And more than that, your therapist doesn't want you to be having an experience that isn't working for you.
I am not the right therapist for every single person. So, please do not waste your own time, please do not waste my time. I have a wait list; it’s okay, you guys, it's okay. You are allowed to say … I would look really within to say, “What is it about this experience that isn't working for me? Is it that I'm uncomfortable? And what type of discomfort am I feeling?”
So, when we think about discomfort, your comfort zone is right here. If I hold my hands and it's like this is my little circle of comfort, and that's a great place to live, and it's just not where growth or change happens. And then if I make a much wider circle, and we think about if you're on the edge of that where you are flooded, you're panicked, it feels like your nervous system is really overwhelmed — we also do not learn from that space there.
So, you're looking to find an experience where I am just outside of my comfort zone, but I am on my growth edge. So, I am experiencing discomfort, but it's tolerable, and I'm not flooded. So, wanting to feel that felt sense in therapy too, of this person really sees me, validates me, cares about me, and I'm feeling the growth and change that I was seeking.
Jon Gay (30:22):
Amanda, you mentioned having a waiting list, and I don't think you're alone in that because I think there's a real shortage of mental health professionals. I've talked to people who wanted to pursue mental health assistance, and they got frustrated because so-and-so had a waiting list, their insurance would only cover these people.
Do you have any advice on how to persevere through those early hurdles when you're trying to connect with a therapist?
Amanda Reedy (30:44):
Yeah, one, just a lot of compassion for yourself. This is a systems issue. There aren't enough mental health resources for individual therapy for every person. Insurance is really frustrating. Reimbursement can be really frustrating.
One, just recognizing that therapy is not the only place to find healing. I actually really don't think that every person needs therapy. So, in that time where you're needing the most help, or when you're waiting for therapy, seek other resources as much as you can.
Are there groups available? You'd probably be better off joining a climbing gym in the meantime or joining some sort of, I don't know, a crocheting group, a walking group, things like that. May you find healing where it finds you. It does not have to exist only in a therapist's office.
And keep asking, keep pursuing. And that's really hard when you're like, “But I've asked three people and there's wait lists.” It is really frustrating. And it's not you, it's a systems issue at large. So, if there are books that you can read, if there are podcasts that you can listen to, all of these are permission slips to turn into your own needs, and then slowly start to address them in the small ways that you can until you do find a good therapist and a good fit for you.
Elara Hadjipateras (32:17):
So, I've actually only been to therapy — I've been to one therapy session in my whole life, which I think I may have even talked about on a previous podcast, Jon and Diana, that my husband and I basically went to a couple's counselor once when we were dealing with whether or not to have an abortion years and years ago, we went to this therapist, and then we never went to another one again.
And I haven't really considered it as something that, let's say, I needed or wanted to do. I speak a lot day-to-day on the phone with my brother who, surprise, he's actually a psychiatrist. And my mother, who's a trained health coach. And I speak to Diana a lot, so I feel like I have a strong family system that I rely upon in the way that I might talk to a therapist.
But do you have any advice, Amanda, on can therapy necessarily be effective for someone if they're skeptical about the process, if they're scared of going into the process?
Amanda Reedy (33:20):
Yeah. Oh my gosh, skeptics welcome. Please bring your skeptic right into the room. That's where we would start. I would say to the skeptic, “I think you've done a really good job. It's probably been really important, really valuable, that you haven't just let people take advantage of you or you've been really protective, and that's a really important quality. I would never try and take that away.”
My guess is that a skeptic, that skeptic energy, learned to do something much younger, learned to develop a real bullshit meter, and that's good. That's a great thing. I would say bring your skeptic to the room, they're allowed to be as close as possible.
And I hear a part of you that's seeking. There's a part of you that's still asking questions. There's a part of you that's saying, “Yeah, and I think I still need something within me to be held and supported.”
So, I would honor that energy too, of like, “Hey, there's a part of you that got you here in my room, on this couch, and there's a part that's really scared of this process.” So, both, all are welcomed. All are welcome. Therapy can be really effective, and I think some good skeptical energy is important.
Elara Hadjipateras (34:38):
Well, I think the thing that really got me there, and Diana, I think we even talked about this when we were all together, is the experience of postpartum rage, and the sleep deprivation and the lack of the ability to emotionally regulate when that's something that, let's say up to this point before, being a parent was always in my wheelhouse. It was always something I managed to keep under control.
So, can we just kind of dip into postpartum rage a little bit in therapy?
Amanda Reedy (35:08):
Yeah, definitely. Well, I can talk about it from an IFS approach, and we can do some experiential if you want to.
Diana Weil (35:14):
Yeah. I never in my life have I felt the rage that I have felt being postpartum (laughs).
Amanda Reedy (35:19):
Yeah, yeah. Whatever saying it's like, “Oh, motherhood doesn't change you, it reveals you or something.” And I'm like, “Well, it's revealed that I'm not a very patient person (laughs). It's revealed that I have a much shorter fuse than I previously thought about myself.”
So, yeah, apparently, I don't have capacity to live on such little sleep. So, maybe Diana, would you want to connect here-
Elara Hadjipateras (35:49):
Yeah, you guys do a little experimentation.
Diana Weil (35:52):
Real postpartum rage (laughs).
Elara Hadjipateras (35:52):
Take it in.
Amanda Reedy (35:53):
Yeah, that's good. So, you can just turn inwards a little bit. You can close your eyes if you like, or just sort of look down just dropping into the body. I'm curious if you can call upon that rage. When was the last time that you felt it? Has it happened in the last week, in the last day?
Diana Weil (36:17):
I think I’ve been getting a little bit more sleep, I got to be honest. So, the postpartum rage hasn't been quite as … I'm trying to think about the last time that it happened. I think it's been a couple weeks.
Amanda Reedy (36:29):
Yeah. But that irritation, that flooding almost of, “How dare you ask me to change another diaper,” or something.
Diana Weil (36:40):
I remember it was actually Elio- we went through a period where he was waking up for four hours in the middle of the night, and Harley, I eventually brought him into the bed. And Indy, our dog, was sleeping in the bed, and I asked Harley to get Indy out of the bed so that Elio could safely be in the bed.
And Harley also, he was sleep deprived. We were both up, and he was being very slow about getting Indy out of the bed. And I had this moment where I was like, “I think I hate you.” (Laughs). There’s my rage.
Amanda Reedy (37:10):
Yeah. So, going back to, we call that a trailhead, that's the trigger where you're like, “Oh, there she is. There's my friend.”
[Laughter]
So, can you feel that in or around your body? Where do you feel that rage, that hatred almost?
Diana Weil (37:27):
I think my belly, chest area.
Amanda Reedy (37:30):
Yeah. And is there a color? Is there a texture? Is there a feeling, or is there imagery connected to that sensation?
Diana Weil (37:41):
It just feels very tight, like a very tight pulling sort of sensation.
Amanda Reedy (37:48):
And then that rage, what does it want for you? What is it doing for you? What is it afraid would happen if it didn't use such force?
Diana Weil (38:04):
Oh, wow (laughs). I think maybe that I wouldn't be heard, that I need the rage in order to be listened to.
Amanda Reedy (38:13):
Yeah. So, sit with that for a minute, because what does it mean if you're not heard?
Diana Weil (38:23):
That no one will help me.
Amanda Reedy (38:25):
Yeah. And if no one's helping you, what does that mean?
Diana Weil (38:31):
I can't do it all.
Amanda Reedy (38:33):
Yeah. So, it feels like a threat to your very existence because you can't do it all. So, if we believe that that rage is then protecting you, it is the guardian of your self-worth, the guardian of your own self-preservation, in this moment, can you turn towards it? How do you feel towards your rage in that moment?
Diana Weil (39:05):
It's like my blood pressure starts spiking (laughs).
Amanda Reedy (39:12):
So, seeing if your rage wants to tell you anything, what does it really want you to know? What's it been like?
Diana Weil (39:20):
I think maybe, what's the way that I'm trying to put it? That it needs more of a voice, I think, is when I tune into it.
Amanda Reedy (39:36):
So, how do you feel towards it? How do you, Diana, feel towards that energy when it's asking you, “I just need a voice?”
Diana Weil (39:45):
I think it makes me feel less afraid of it.
Amanda Reedy (39:55):
And can it sense that from you?
Diana Weil (39:58):
Yeah, I think it helps to soften rather than my heart starting to spike, knowing that it's okay that it gets to be there with me, it sort of softens and brings my heart rate back. I get a little bit more regulated.
Amanda Reedy (40:14):
I mean, we could keep going, keep going deep, deep, deep to like, “Oh, what does it mean if I'm just totally-”
Diana Weil (40:19):
That was really helpful. I didn't even know that that was there.
Amanda Reedy (40:22):
The you just ask okay, in those moments — later, the moment has passed, can we update the time and context of right now, you're able to feel a lot more compassion for the rage, which previously was labeled as dangerous, and feelings and sensations will come and go unless we assign danger to them.
That is what keeps us swirling in the emotion, is if we try to repress it, we try to push it away, we try to get rid of it, or we just let it ruminate. But if you just said one, you're feeling angry, but underneath that, you're feeling scared. And can I extend the compassion to the part that's scared? And can I send the gratitude to the part that's trying to protect you?
Diana Weil (41:13):
I'm like, wow, okay, I think I should probably go to therapy (laughs).
Elara Hadjipateras (41:18):
Amanda, do you have a wait list?
Diana Weil (41:20):
Oh, I know. Thankfully, I get Amanda for free. I know everyone's really jealous (laughs). So, I think we're not quite there yet. But I know that Elara is probably in this phase of parenting. Amanda, I know that you are for sure there.
What recommendation do you have for when this is your child who is really revving up your nervous system and you have to regulate yourself so that you can then regulate your child?
Amanda Reedy (41:46):
So, one thing that I want to say is that emotional regulation is not the absence of emotion. So, you as a parent do not need to be the perfect balance, centered, neutral force in your child's life all the time. That does not model anything for them. You are allowed to feel the full spectrum of the human experience.
Now, within that, regulation is the ability to come back down, to come back up, and then to connect to attune, to connect, to attach, to repair.
So, what's your question? What do I do when I'm feeling really overwhelmed? I can feel the parts of me starting to … I can feel my nervous system being overwhelmed.
Diana Weil (42:41):
If your toddler is having a temper tantrum and you have to regulate yourself so that you can then help regulate your child, that has to be one of the hardest parts of parenting, right?
Amanda Reedy (42:50):
Yeah. One, it's for me, it's recognizing her feelings aren't dangerous either. Feelings are just feelings, and they will come and go unless I assign danger to them. So, I can do that within myself too. And I can do that compassionately of like, okay, this is really hard. The sound for me gets really overwhelming, the constant demands that a child puts on you is really overwhelming.
And I just did a full IFS training, so I've been really steeped in this. So, I worked with this part that I can see her making lunch in the kitchen, and I have two young kids under three. So, the toddler is like, “I want this, I want this.” And then the baby's just crying loud, and I have this part that wants to duck down and crouch under the counter.
And it feels like … the language that comes is it feels like motherhood is happening to me, and I've lost my agency in it. So, in that, it's like, can I, in my mind, wrap my arms around this really overstimulated, overwhelmed part? Can I shift what's happening in my body? I cannot use language to talk myself out of a physical experience, I need to shift my somatic experience.
Can I actually crouch down for a minute? And then can I stand up and can I invite in the other energy that I know helps me? Can I invite in some silliness? Can I invite in some creativity? Can I bring in music? Can I just run cold water over my hands? And then can I attune to my child who is having a meltdown over how the banana was split?
And then I can say, “You really wanted the banana whole, and I handed it to you split. That's hard, I see that.” That will pass. I don't have to take away that feeling, I don't have to rescue that feeling from her. All I have to do is believe that it will pass.
Diana Weil (44:52):
Elara, I want you to tap into this because I know that you're in this phase, you're heading into toddlerhood pretty fast (laughs).
Elara Hadjipateras (44:58):
Oh my gosh. So, the things that comes to mind is: you kind of just have to let yourself flow into the chaos.
So, an example: this morning, I'm on a family vacation right now. Different background than usual, and some connectivity issues. We're down in the Bahamas.
I'm up nice and early at 6:00 AM with my son, Koa, and decided to go to breakfast with him. Peter was supposed to come, and then last minute, he had to take a work call. So, it's just me and Koa. We're at the breakfast table, it's outside, there's birds, there's sprinklers. He basically wants to be anywhere other than at that table eating breakfast.
So, I kind of just leaned into it, let him walk around the restaurant. I was like, “Look, there's no one else here, or there's two men seated on the other side of the restaurant. He's not bothering anyone. Let him walk around, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? He's going to trip and fall on his feet and kind of hit his hands on the ground. He's going to crawl under tables, chase birds. That's okay, that's fine.”
And I just spent a lot of time getting up, chasing him, bringing him back. He'd eventually go back down. I give him about a 30-second head start, go back, chase him. Eventually, my cappuccino comes to the table and I'm like, “You know what, I'm just going to take about 10 seconds, I'm going to put my two brown sugar packets in, take a few sips.”
And then I was like, “Nope. You know what, I just got to pick this up, follow him down the stairs, and I'm just going to bring it and watch my son get soaking wet, running through the sprinkler, and that's okay. And just kind of laugh about it and enjoy it.”
And I think it was really helpful for me to tap into the part of me where I had this perspective of not saying, “Oh my God, everyone around me is judging me, my child is out of control.” I didn't tap into that inner critic. Instead, I looked around and I decided to see people who were also parents, have older kids, have gone through the exact same thing. They have empathy, they have compassion. They totally understand, they get it.
And you just have to lean into that and choose to see that versus letting that critical voice overcome and spill onto your child as well.
Amanda Reedy (47:02):
Because what happens is we're like, “Oh, I'm scared of judgment and my child's having a tantrum in Trader Joe's or something.” And it's like, “Oh, that's my stuff. I'm scared of rejection. I'm scared of judgment.”
And I'm like, “Oh, she's just feeling a feeling.” And if I can connect to that, and if I can gently remind the part of me that it's like, hey, we don't do that anymore. We don't have to make sure everyone else is fine all the time. We don't have to take the emotional temperature of every single person in an environment.
And then you do, when you have space within yourself, you see the space within other people to tolerate that. And not only are those people at breakfast probably not annoyed, they're also probably delighting in your kid.
Elara Hadjipateras (47:47):
Yeah.
Amanda Reedy (47:48):
That's what I see. I let my kid run around the coffee shop. She climbs into other people's tables, I watch their faces. If they look annoyed, I'll say, “Let's go over here.” But I also give them … it's like, you're welcome for my child, she's magic. She's pure human moon beams, and I get to just share her with the world.
And my son too, he's like so smiley and so happy. It's just like, oh gosh, if we create that spaciousness within ourselves, then we can see it in other people. And kids are actually a gift, and they're not a nuisance. And the belief that kids are annoying, loud, and burdensome does not come from the actual experience. Most often, it comes from, I think our cultural and ancestral burdens that children aren't allowed to exist in the world.
Diana Weil (48:35):
Amanda, one thing, when we took our first flight with Elio, see, I am one of those people, I get really anxious about other people's comfort and making sure that everyone around … and you told me something, and every single time I'm in public now with my child, this is what I repeat to myself: that you are entitled to a child-free life, you are not entitled to a child-free world.
Amanda Reedy (48:55):
(Chuckles) Oh, what a good thing I said. I don't even remember saying that.
Diana Weil (48:59):
Other people are in entitled to a child-free life, not a child-free world. So, that's just what I repeat. I just repeat that to myself when I'm in public and if he cries, and obviously, I do my best to not piss off other people, or if we're on a plane to comfort my child so that he's not just being parented in a public space, but also that he is also allowed to exist in this world.
Amanda Reedy (49:22):
And I trust in people's capacity to move through it. They might be dysregulated on that flight and then they're going to get off that flight and they're going to walk outside and take a breath and not have a baby screaming in the area, and they're going to be okay. Just like I'm going to be okay (laughs).
Diana Weil (49:40):
We will be one day (laughs).
Amanda Reedy (49:41):
I'm okay, right?
Diana Weil (49:45):
I know that we're running out of time, but I just really want to very briefly touch on couples therapy, and I have two parts. One, I think that this is a touchy one, but what would you say if you feel like your partner should go to therapy, how would you approach that?
One, if you just want to approach a subject with them, “Hey, I think it could benefit you to go to therapy.” And two, what if your partner doesn't believe in therapy and you want to go to couples therapy or you think that they could benefit from therapy?
Amanda Reedy (50:14):
Okay, so the first question, how do I tell my partner I think they should go to therapy?
Diana Weil (50:21):
Yeah.
Jon Gay (50:21):
Not like that.
Diana Weil (50:23):
Yeah, not like that (laughs).
Amanda Reedy (50:26):
Well, first let's ask, how do you feel when you're told that you should do something? Pretty defensive, pretty “don't tell me what I need to do.”
So, there's always a harsh approach and there's probably a soft approach. And trying to explore that soft approach of saying, “Hey, this has been really helpful for me, I'm wondering with a lot of curiosity, have you ever thought about therapy?”
And if they say, “I don't believe in that,” you say, “Oh, can you help me understand more? What are your reservations? These are the things I'm noticing, this is coming from a place of love. If therapy's not the answer, how can I support you and how can you support yourself?”
It's like helping them get really curious. Because maybe they had a terrible experience in therapy and they're like, “I'm never doing that again.” That's really appropriate to honor that first before you say, “But you need it because I'm going crazy and you're not being a good partner, and I can't handle this issue right now. That just further puts up a wall.”
If you can approach it gently with compassion and noticing your own agenda underneath, “Can I turn that down a little bit so I can really hear my partner who has an expertise in their own life, tell me what they need?”
Jon Gay (51:43):
“Help me understand” is one of my favorite phrases because, and it takes it off you and back on me, as opposed to, “What the heck is wrong with you?” It's, “Help me understand where you're coming from.” It's such a different tone.
Amanda Reedy (51:57):
Yeah, “Help me understand, tell me more. Yeah, what's been going on with you?”
Elara Hadjipateras (52:02):
So, Amanda, if I have a partner or husband that's in therapy, should I ask them how therapy is going? Or should it be completely private? How do you kind of broach that being supportive in a therapy journey without being too intrusive?
Amanda Reedy (52:16):
I think you hand that question right back to your partner: “How do you feel about if I ask about therapy?” Also check in with your agenda: “Why am I asking about therapy?” (Chuckles). Do I feel so uncomfortable that I don't know what's happening in that room and I want to know all the nitty gritty details? Okay, that's my work to take care of.
Is it just like, “Hey, do you mind if I check in? How do you feel if I ask those questions, how it's going, how you're feeling?” But then being comfortable if the answer is, “I actually feel best if I keep some of this private,” and then you're okay with that. And sometimes, it can be really nice to say, “I just learned this about myself in therapy,” and then you want to share that with your partner.
Also, for the people in therapy, not everything that a therapist can hold and validate is really meant for your partner to be able to hear and validate.
[Laughter]
So, what you're able to say unfiltered to a therapist when you are in a relationship, you kind of need to bring back in that filter and respect and care for the other person and relationship as the whole. So, I caution both of, yes, talk about it or don't talk about it. But yeah, with some discernment.
Jon Gay (53:35):
That's what I love about the relationship with the therapist is because the therapist's concern is you, as opposed to your spouse, your kids, your folks, your relatives, your friends. There's more of a give and take to that relationship. And certainly, there's give and take between a therapist and a patient, but for me, it always felt like there's no qualification.
The therapist is there, you can say what you want, and they're there to address what's going on in your head. You don't have to worry about as much give and take. Do you kind of agree with that, Amanda? Am I kind of rambling here or-
Amanda Reedy (54:03):
No, it's so true. You're allowed to say it where within your partnership you should be able to say it soft. You should be practicing holding space for your partner at the same time. And a therapist is just, “Okay, say it rough first and then we can work through that together.”
You, Diana, don't need to tell Harley you hate him in the moment on the bed and it's just like, “You piece of crap, husband, do you even love me?” Those might be private thoughts that then you take to a therapist and a therapist can say, “That makes a lot of sense that you're feeling that. That moment was really intense.”
So, that can be held in a non-judgmental outside of your relationship. And then hopefully, you can take that experience. And then once that's filtered down of, I actually don't hate my husband, I was just overwhelmed, I was really scared that I can't do it all, that's a very different thing.
And then you can take that little nugget of information to say, “Hey, I know I snapped at you. I'm realizing what was happening, here’s what’s most helpful for me in that moment.”
Elara Hadjipateras (55:10):
Would you say that there's a right way to ask your partner to go to couples therapy with you?
Amanda Reedy (55:15):
Nope. There's no right anything. Everything's nuanced, everything probably depends. I think there's a soft way, I think there's a harsh way to say, “If you don't go to therapy, we're getting a divorce.” Probably not the best way.
I also, I have met husbands who've come to individual therapy, and I've asked, “And why are you here? What's been going on?” It's like, “Well, my wife told me I needed to be here.” And it's like, “What are we doing? But who are you? What parts of you need to tune to? What parts of you do we want to heal?” And it's just like, “I don't know, my wife just told me I needed to be here.”
So, you want to be cautious of everything works better if it comes from within. If they can say, “Yes, this is a choice that I am making to be here because I want it for me and therefore, I want it for our relationship.”
Elara Hadjipateras (56:05):
Alright, so let's just say your partner or your husband is not ready to go to therapy. You've asked, they don't want to go. Are there other tactic/techniques, things that you can do at home, activities to open up those communication pathways if they're clogged up?
Amanda Reedy (56:22):
Yeah, so you can be clear about what's not working. So, you can be really compassionate to say, “Hey, I am hearing that you're not ready for therapy, and that doesn't feel like the answer.” I'm also really not okay with the way that we're communicating. So, can you help me? How can we together do this differently if therapy's not the answer?”
He or she still needs to be a part of that conversation. We're not abandoning our needs because somebody is not ready or not able, or not financially able, or can't find a therapist. Healing is happening, work is happening most often outside of a therapy session.
So, you might say, “Hey, could we read the book, Hold Me Tight together and do the workbook? Hey, I got John Gottman's Eight Dates. Would you be willing to do this with me? I know it's really hard to turn in and have these hard conversations. I feel anxious about it too, but could we do this together? Because I really need something to shift because I care, because I want good things for us, because I want this relationship to be stronger. And if you're not ready for therapy, you're not ready for therapy.”
Elara Hadjipateras (57:29):
So, in personal experience, I found that when Peter and I are struggling to communicate, lack of sleep, we're just not there dealing with new parent things, it's really tough — one of the best things that we can do is just go and break a sweat together. So, whether that's going to a CrossFit class, playing tennis together, jumping in the sauna, it helps to just clear our minds, clear the air, and I just find that you're in such a better state of mind to then have a productive conversation.
I'll naturally have a softer approach, Peter will naturally have a softer approach, and we're just easily able to address any issues that we might be facing, and we're a lot more open to receive information that otherwise might come off as critical or attacking, and we're just feeling in a better state of mind after working out.
Amanda Reedy (58:19):
Totally. So, if CrossFit is your therapy right now, that's your therapy, that's great. That's a permission slip, that's an invitation to turn towards each other to meet those bids for connection, to move your body together or individually, and then come back together. It's like if that's working for you, great. Amazing.
Diana Weil (58:37):
I got to do a soft plug here for Amanda's podcast called, That's My Therapy (laughs) which is all about this.
Amanda Reedy (58:45):
It's mostly just that therapy or healing does not need to happen in a traditional talk therapy setting. We are finding healing, it is innate to us. Like birds are to singing and bees are to honey, healing is something that happens within us. It does not have to happen in one specific context like a therapy office.
Diana Weil (59:05):
Amanda, you are so amazing. I know that everyone listening to this is very jealous that you are in my life and that you're Elio's godmother, and I am so blessed to have both of these amazing women. I just got to be with both of them together, and it was just the best week ever.
So, we always like to finish our podcast with two questions.
Amanda Reedy (59:21):
Okay.
Diana Weil (59:22):
We didn't prep you for these, so feel free to take a moment to think about them if you want. The first question is: what is a life lesson that you have had to learn the hard way?
Amanda Reedy (59:35):
That I've had to learn the hard way that authenticity is not a threat to connection, it is the key to connection.
Diana Weil (59:50):
Ooh …
Amanda Reedy (59:53):
Yeah, the more that I am myself, the more people want to be around me. Not everyone has to like me. I am not for everyone, not everyone is for me, but I am exactly myself.
Jon Gay (01:00:05):
Took me well into my thirties to get my head around that one.
Amanda Reedy (01:00:07):
Yeah (chuckles).
Elara Hadjipateras (01:00:09):
Alright, Amanda, follow-up question: right now, is there any specific mantra or phrase that comes to mind that's helping you through things at the moment?
Amanda Reedy (01:00:21):
Oh man, I have a part of me that is a collector of quotes, mantras, songs, poems. Diana's like, “I have this problem,” and I'm like, “Would you like a poem?”
[Laughter]
I got them locked and loaded no matter what context that I'm in, I love that energy within me. So, it's hard to say, is there one thing right now?
There's one that I have a mentor, a supervisor told me, and it is that, “Compassion only lives in boundaried relationships.”
So, I have a value of being a compassionate person, and because of that, that actually means that I have to also be a boundaried person so that I can maintain my compassion. Because if I am unboundaried: instead of compassion, then resentment comes in. And that exists in my relationship, in my work life, in friendships, with my children even.
I can feel resentful for my children instead of compassionate towards my children. And it often means there's just a boundary that's not working. I need to take more time for myself, or I just need to attune to myself more, and I'm allowed to do that. And that's actually the most helpful thing because that returns me to a state of compassion for the people I care about, for the larger humanity, all of it applies.
Diana Weil (01:01:40):
Yeah, that's like that you can't pour from an empty cup, but just set in a better, I think with more parameters.
Amanda Reedy (01:01:49):
I'm so prone to saying yes to things, and then I feel resentful that I'm over stretched. So, it's like, oh, I'm not being compassionate, so I need to express the need.
With my husband, it's like if I'm feeling resentful, oh, what's really happening is there's not a boundary or there's not a need being met that I'm not stating. So, yeah, compassion only lives in boundaried relationship.
Elara Hadjipateras (01:02:12):
You're only human.
Amanda Reedy (01:02:13):
Yeah.
Elara Hadjipateras (01:02:14):
Yeah, I love that. Well, Amanda, if anyone wants to find you – we know that you have the podcast, but let's say they're interested in working with you, how would they go about doing that?
Amanda Reedy (01:02:24):
I have a website, it's just amandareedy.com. You're welcome to contact me through there. My sister and I, who's also a counselor, we have a podcast called That's My Therapy, where we kind of just shoot the shit and talk about all the good things about therapy in and outside of a therapeutic office.
And if you're looking for an IFS practitioner, I would encourage you to check out the ifsinstitute.com, and they have a directory of practitioners where you can type in your state or city, and find someone who is a trained IFS practitioner.
If you go on Psychology Today, anyone can kind of just say that that's their modality. So, if you want one that you know has some deep knowledge in the modality, I would encourage you to do that.
Jon Gay (01:03:19):
And we'll put all of Amanda's links in the show notes as well.
Diana Weil (01:03:22):
Amazing Amanda, thank you so much for this. I think I was like, oh, I don't really need therapy at this point in my life, and now I'm like, I should probably go find a therapist (laughs).
Elara Hadjipateras (01:03:34):
Thanks, Amanda. See you.
Amanda Reedy (01:03:36):
Thank you. Love you guys.
[Music Playing]
Jon Gay (01:03:38):
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