In this episode of The Matcha Guardians, we dive into the world of skincare with licensed esthetician Joan Gordon. Known for her personalized approach and expertise, Joan shares her journey from art teacher to skincare specialist, emphasizing the transformative power of tailored skincare routines and facials.
She explains how a facial isn’t just about relaxation but a way to rejuvenate the skin, reset habits, and improve overall well-being. Joan provides a comprehensive breakdown of an effective skincare routine: starting with cleansing, followed by toning, exfoliating (as needed), targeting specific concerns with serums, and finishing with moisturizer and sunscreen.
She stresses the importance of consistency, clean skin, and avoiding common mistakes like using body wash on the face or overloading the skin with too many products. She highlights the role of pH-balancing toners and scientifically-backed products from brands like Biologique Recherche and Valmont. We even get our producer Jon to chime in from the men's perspective.
We also discuss the pros and cons of treatments like microneedling, lasers, and dermaplaning. While these can yield transformative results, Joan emphasizes that they should be approached cautiously, especially for those with sensitive or darker skin tones due to the risks of adverse reactions or hyperpigmentation. For beginners or those overwhelmed by skincare, Joan advises starting with three basics: cleansing, toning, and moisturizing.
Joan also delves into the psychological benefits of skincare, noting that facials can uplift mood and encourage self-care. She highlights the importance of quality over quantity in choosing friends and maintaining a stress-free life as these factors significantly impact skin health. To those seeking a trusted esthetician, Joan suggests looking for professionals trained in high-quality skincare lines, emphasizing ongoing education and a personalized approach.
Whether you’re a skincare novice or a seasoned enthusiast, this episode offers actionable advice and insights into nurturing both your skin and spirit.
More:
Biologiue Line: https://shopdelamar.com/brands/Biologique-Recherche.html
Valmont Line: https://shopdelamar.com/brands/Valmont.html
Delamar Hotel Spa (Greenwich Connecticut): https://www.delamar.com/hotels/delamar-greenwich-harbor/greenwich-spa
Voiceover (00:00):
Welcome to the Matcha Guardians Podcast, brought to you by matcha.com. Here we focus on the biggest trending health topics of our time, featuring the greatest and upcoming wellness advocates. Now here are the Matcha Guardians, licensed dietitian, Diana Weil, and medical journalist, Elara Hadjipateras.
Diana Weil (00:18):
Hello everyone. Welcome to this week's episode.
Elara Hadjipateras (00:21):
Hello. We are super excited to have Joan Gordon with us today, who is a licensed esthetician and my own facialist, who I've been seeing for the last year and a half. And I've been super excited about bringing Joan onto the podcast because she is so knowledgeable about all things skincare.
So, a little bit more about Joan. Joan, as I said, she's a highly skilled and passionate esthetician, specializing in diverse array of facials in skincare treatments.
Partnered with the innovative and exclusive lines of Biliogique and Valmont, Joan has over a decade of experience in the beauty industry, beginning her career as a makeup artist and later learning an esthetician's license allowed her to broaden her skillset, mastering both makeup application and skincare treatments.
This unique combination enhances her reputation, offering clients expert guidance on both beauty enhancement and skin health. Joan is committed to ongoing education so she can upgrade the client's experience based on industry trends utilizing cutting-edge technology in high quality products.
Joan has seen firsthand the transformative power of skincare and how a personalized approach that nurtures both the skin and the spirits of her clients just really works. Known for her warm demeanor and the ability to connect with clients on a personal level, I can say this firsthand, it leads to an absolutely memorable and wonderful experience.
Joan strives to promote relaxation, rejuvenation, and helping you achieve your beauty goals. Welcome Joan.
Joan Gordon (01:49):
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Diana Weil (01:51):
I would love to hear a little bit about your journey. What led you into skincare and your background?
Joan Gordon (01:57):
Well, in my past life I was a teacher, and I taught art for a little while. So, I've always been creative. And then I had my children, and I started diving into becoming a makeup artist. I kind of was doing that for a while.
My friend opened up a blow dry salon and I was working there for several years and then I just decided to go and get my license in skincare while I was doing that. And I kind of just plowed forward from there. I loved it. I loved the beauty industry. I always did.
Elara Hadjipateras (02:37):
It's very satisfying, I'm sure, to have clients come in and then they leave just feeling like a great, better version of themselves.
Joan Gordon (02:44):
Yeah, and also, I was working with kids before and I was dealing with middle schoolers, and it was just as much as I did like it, and it was gratifying, I really enjoy working with people that actually come to me purposefully.
They come to me because they want to look better, or they come to me for an event or whatever it is. And I love the process of them coming and then leaving, and when they leave — sometimes people can come to me in a bad mood and then an hour later, an hour and a half later, whatever it is, they’re in such a different head space and it's really nice to be able to put somebody there.
Diana Weil (03:33):
We came out to Connecticut and as a birthday present, Elara gifted me a facial with you, which was so lovely, and I can really speak to that. As it was the first time I feel like since I'd had my baby, that I had had an hour of just like pampering and self-care and I feel like I left …
I think postpartum, you don't really feel like yourself or at least I haven't felt like myself. And getting to spend that hour with you, I left feeling rejuvenated and more motivated to take care of myself. And yeah, it's like, I think it means more than just that hour on the table. The benefits go beyond that.
Just so everyone listening at home knows Elara has a refrigerator in her bathroom for her skincare.
Jon Gay (04:16):
Wow.
Joan Gordon (04:16):
What do you have, one of those mini ones?
Elara Hadjipateras (04:18):
Yeah, little mini, cute. Yeah, it's a mint-colored fridge. And I keep all the products that Joan has recommended for me in my little fridge. So, they're just in tip top shape. And it's also a way to hide them from my husband so they're not like easily accessible, just kind of right at the at the sink.
So, he just sees it as he's shaving or something, thinks, “Oh, I'm going to slather this on my face,” and waste my products. That's just like my worst nightmare. Right?
Diana Weil (04:41):
Elara was joking that when Peter's mad at her, what he'll do is go and use one of her masks.
Elara Hadjipateras (04:46):
Well, I wasn't joking. That's a serious thing that happens and I get very upset (laughs).
Jon Gay (04:50):
I just feel like if there were a little fridge in my bathroom, I would probably remove what was in it and put a beer in it to have a shower beer.
(Laughter)
Diana Weil (04:57):
Do my products need to be refrigerated?
Joan Gordon (04:59):
It feels a lot nicer when they go on your face cold. Anything cold on your face feels really nice. Do they have to? No. Will they prolong the efficacy of the product? Perhaps. Is it mandatory? No, it's not mandatory. They'll last, but it always feels nice to put something cold on your face.
Diana Weil (05:20):
I have a follow-up question on that. So, on the bottle it says whatever, six months, 18 months on your makeup, but face products are expensive and if I don't use something in that recommended time, I'm absolutely not throwing it away. How bad is that?
(Laughter)
Joan Gordon (05:34):
Well, let's backtrack on that question. Why are you buying an expensive product and not using it?
Elara Hadjipateras (05:42):
Ooh.
Diana Weil (05:43):
That's fair too. Okay, let's stick with makeup. Let's stick with makeup.
(Laughter)
Jon Gay (05:46):
Hang on, let me make you feel better Diana. And this is going to horrify Joan. So, I was a broadcast journalism major in college and one of our classes: we anchored a television newscast. And so, they had us all go out and get makeup to be TV and camera ready. This is like 2002.
And so, it was just the basis, foundation or whatever for your face. And I kept that thing as I'm going to reveal myself in the podcast, I kept that thing for like 8, 10 years. If I had a zit, I would just cover it up.
Joan's eyes are so big right now, if you're listening to the audio version of the podcast. I just tell you that to make you feel better, Diana. I know now that was a really bad idea. And fortunately, I didn't get botulism or something, but not my finest moment.
Joan Gordon (06:33):
What kind of product was it?
Jon Gay (06:34):
I mean this is, gosh, 25 years ago Joan, but this probably was just like put it on your face so you're not washing.
Joan Gordon (06:40):
It was a makeup product or was it a skincare product?
Jon Gay (06:43):
It was a makeup product.
Joan Gordon (06:44):
Like a foundation type of thing?
Jon Gay (06:46):
Yeah, I think, like Diana said, like a kind of a concealer. Yeah.
Diana Weil (06:49):
Well, that makes me feel better because I don't have anything that's 10-years-old.
Joan Gordon (06:52):
I say as a makeup artist, I do have a lot of things that are old in my kit. My shadows are old, but they still work. I mean I don't know how much I would use a foundation that's super old because I feel like it would maybe crust up.
Elara Hadjipateras (07:10):
Now, how much does putting on a full face of makeup every day impact your skin health and your skincare routine?
Joan Gordon (07:18):
The only reason it should impact your skincare routine is make sure you take it off. If you don't take it off, you're going to break out. Your skin's not going to be happy. Your skin is happy when it's clean and taken care of.
Diana Weil (07:33):
So, do you think it's okay to wear makeup every day though, for skin health? Like if you put on foundation concealer, all that kind of stuff?
Joan Gordon (07:38):
I don't think there's a problem with it if you take it off, you just have to have the routine. You just have to have the diligence to clean your face before, clean your face after.
Elara Hadjipateras (07:51):
Should you clean your face, like take off your makeup before you work out?
Joan Gordon (07:55):
I would, I know a lot of people that wear like concealer or something. I think more important is make sure that you cleanse your face after you work out.
Elara Hadjipateras (08:06):
Big question in my mind, what is more important? Washing my skin at the beginning of the day or washing my skin at the end of the day? Personally, I'm much more consistent with my nighttime skincare routine. And then in the morning I do just a quick rinse and then I'll make sure I lather on moisturizer or SPF. But like the real cleaning cleansing, step by step process happens at night for me.
Joan Gordon (08:28):
So, the morning you're going to remove your sweat from the night, all your oils and your bacteria that are created while you sleep, because there's a lot of cell turnover when you sleep and at night you're going to remove your dirt, your makeup, your environmental pollutants, all of that business, so-
Elara Hadjipateras (08:49):
If you chose one, if you chose one, Joan, if you had to choose.
Joan Gordon (08:53):
If you had to choose one, probably the night, because think about how many times a day you wash your hands.
Diana Weil (09:00):
Do you think that you should use a different cleanser in the morning and a different cleanser at the night? Or can you use the same cleanser?
Joan Gordon (09:07):
I think you can use the same cleanser. If you're wearing makeup, I think you should definitely at night use a cleanser that's going to help take off your makeup. So, at night for me, I mean I don't wear a ton of makeup, but at night I always use a balm, or an oil-based cleanser. Because that helps emulsify everything and take it all off. And in the morning, I might use more of a milky cleanser. It depends on your budget. If you can only afford one, then skincare can get expensive.
Diana Weil (09:43):
Okay. Can we talk about that? I think that that's … skincare can be outrageously expensive. And then you see drugstore products. Do you think that you have to spend money on skincare? Do you think that you can get the same quality at drugstore? What would you tell someone about cost and skincare?
Joan Gordon (10:02):
Do what you can. But obviously there's certain lines like the Biologique line and the Valmont line. I think they are a lot of science putting into their skincare and the efficacy of their products is transformative. It can really change the way you look. I mean, for example, I didn't use Biologique before I started working at the Delamar. And I noticed a big difference just by using the P50 lotion. Do you still use it, Elara?
Elara Hadjipateras (10:38):
I do. Yeah. I still — but I don't do it every day. I usually do it like three days a week now.
Joan Gordon (10:43):
And do you exfoliate the other days also?
Elara Hadjipateras (10:46):
No.
Joan Gordon (10:47):
And why don't you use it every day?
Elara Hadjipateras (10:49):
Just because I feel like it's too much on my skin. My skin's a bit more sensitive now. So, what I'll do is I have the Valmont, the Bubble Falls.
Joan Gordon (10:59):
The Bubble Falls is a cleanser.
Elara Hadjipateras (11:00):
The cleanser. Yeah. I just do the cleanser. I don't do any sort of other exfoliator.
Joan Gordon (11:02):
So, you don't tone?
Elara Hadjipateras (11:04):
I don't tone. I have a little kit. So, I got a little … because I'm obsessed with skincare, guys. For myself, for Christmas, I got myself the Valmont, which is a skincare line from Sweden, right Joan?
Joan Gordon (11:16):
No, it's Switzerland.
Elara Hadjipateras (11:17):
Switzerland, sorry. Switzerland. And I got myself an advent calendar and in it, it had the toner, which I used, and I love. And I think next time I come into the spa, I will be getting, because I think I would benefit from having that in my routine as an extra kind of sloughing of the skin, like you're saying.
Joan Gordon (11:33):
It's just a nice refresher. So, toner actually, after you clean your skin, you can strip your skin and what a toner does is actually it balances out your pH and brings your skin tone perfectly so that it's at the right pH for everything to sink into your skin.
Elara Hadjipateras (11:55):
Yeah. So, let's take a step back in terms of if we were going to put together an ideal skincare routine, the products might vary a little bit, in terms of the specifications of the type of toner you use or the type of cleanser you use. But what does a cleanser provide? What does the toner provide? What are the next two or three steps we might do during a night care routine?
Diana Weil (12:18):
This is where I get so lost because every product is like, use this as your first, put this directly on clean skin. And it's like, okay, which one do I use-
Elara Hadjipateras (12:26):
But what is clean skin? Yeah, exactly. So, it's a bit confusing.
Jon Gay (12:29):
I'm also going to jump in here for a second and say that the products we're talking about here, don't feel overwhelmed to write them all down if you're listening, we'll compile a list and put it in our show notes afterwards as well.
Joan Gordon (12:38):
So, obviously you start out cleansing your skin. Most skin types are great for a milky cleanser, oilier skin types, gel cleansers work nicely because they're not going to leave as much of a silkiness on your skin.
Diana Weil (12:56):
What is a milky cleanser? Will it say milky cleanser or what? How do we know if it's a milky cleanser?
Joan Gordon (13:01):
When you take it out, it has a creamier texture, a milk, and there's a gel cleanser that looks like gel. And there is a bubble cleanser. Some people like the feeling a bubble.
But the nice thing about the Valmont Bubble Falls is that after you clean your skin, you don't feel squeaky clean. You still have that moisturizing feel. That's a myth. I think also, in my opinion, I'm sure there's other people that might disagree with me, but I think having that squeaky clean feeling that most people get from, let's say soap is not the best thing for your skin.
Because what you've now done is you stripped all the oils off of your skin. You've erected a little havoc on your barrier. So, and that's where toner comes into play. So, Elara, that's why you should be using your toner. So, you never know how your skin is going to react to a cleanser.
So, it's always great to tone afterwards, toner balances out your pH. Now the P50, which is with Biologique, not only does it tone your face, but it's also a daily exfoliant, which is a really nice thing because it's mild enough to exfoliate your skin on a regular basis, which means sloughing off the dead skin, kind of evening out your skin tone, evening out your texture, which is a great thing to do.
Elara Hadjipateras (14:34):
But you just leave it on, which I think is like, for me, that was counterintuitive. Because when I hear the word exfoliator, I think something that's rough. St. Ives, that you get at the drugstore, and I'm scrubbing it on my face and I'm sloughing it off.
With the P50, it's just kind of this oil that you're putting on a cotton ball and you're just kind of popping it all over your face, and just leaving it on, which is-
Joan Gordon (14:55):
And leaving it on. St. Ives is a product that you can buy at the drugstore, and it's basically rocks in a bottle. I mean, it's terrible.
Elara Hadjipateras (15:06):
I used to use it.
Joan Gordon (15:07):
Yeah, we all did I think because that was the exfoliator, right? But I always tell people, use it on your hands and your feet.
Diana Weil (15:16):
That's something that I've had to really shift because when I exfoliate, I want to feel that exfoliation.
Joan Gordon (15:23):
The granular.
Diana Weil (15:23):
Right. And that's not like these gentle exfoliants, which I think are much better for your skin. They don't give me that same satisfaction, but they don't feel like they're doing anything.
Joan Gordon (15:34):
The Valmont actually has a beautiful face exfoliant that has the granular effect. And that's good too. I mean, whatever works for you. Some people don't want to — as Elara said, it's too much for her right now. I don't know which formula you're using. And that's also the nice thing about the P50 is that it comes in five different formulas. But some people just want to exfoliate a couple of times a week and that's fine. One, two times a week. Just make sure you do it.
Diana Weil (16:04):
Okay. So, you cleanse, you tone and then what?
Elara Hadjipateras (16:07):
Exfoliate.
Joan Gordon (16:08):
You can exfoliate and then you tone again. Always good to hydrate between your steps. So, if you get a hydrating toner: you cleanse, you tone, you exfoliate, you tone, and then your skin is prepared for a treatment for targeted concerns like a serum.
Diana Weil (16:33):
Okay. So, we prep the skin and then you kind of get into the individual, if you have acne concerns, if you've got wrinkles or stuff like that.
Elara Hadjipateras (16:41):
If you have what, dark spots, if you want to … yeah, you deal with brightening and things like that. And then you just want to lock it all in with a really nice a moisture. Just putting all the stuff.
Joan Gordon (16:55):
Eye cream moisturizer. And if you don't want to put on a serum, okay don't. Again, it's all up to you. It's all up to your budget. Sunscreen, super important. I don't personally like sunscreen that is in your moisturizer. I think it's fine. But I think adding another layer of sunscreen is better.
Elara Hadjipateras (17:17):
Outside of your daily skincare routine, what would be the ideal amount of times for someone to get a facial?
Joan Gordon (17:25):
Facials are great four to six weeks. It's always great to start them in your 30s and 40s, if you can. If you're lucky enough to afford it in your 20s, great. I think it's a reset button for your skin. You're going to see visible results. It's going to give you a boost.
So, if there's a special occasion that you have to go to and you're going to get a facial, you're going to notice a difference in your skin. It's going to glow; it's going to be brighter. You're going to see how a facial actually works.
And most importantly, at that point, you can get a little guidance. And when you get a little guidance, hopefully you'll take something away with you and you can start some sort of routine. If you have no routine and then you go and get a facial, most likely you'll buy one product or you'll take away something from your esthetician and it will stick with you.
And then you'll start adding that into your routine. And every time you go, you're going to notice that “Oh, well, I kind of liked that, or I didn't like the way my skin felt after that.” And then you kind of play with whatever suggestions we have offered you and you go from there.
And whatever works best for you on a daily basis. But I do believe that facials are a great way to, A, make you feel good. B, you're going to want … I mean, Diana, you never get facials, right?
Diana Weil (19:06):
No. I don't get facials.
Joan Gordon (19:07):
And you came to me last month and how'd your skin feel? How did you feel after?
Diana Weil (19:14):
Great. I felt, I mean, I felt like my skin glowed. I felt like it was a lot healthier. I was nice. And I think I would benefit more from it consistently (laughs).
Joan Gordon (19:22):
And how long did you feel like your skin looked good?
Diana Weil (19:27):
Maybe like a week.
Joan Gordon (19:28):
Yeah. That's what I would think.
Elara Hadjipateras (19:29):
Sleep deprivation just sucks it out of us. Jon, have you ever gotten a facial?
Jon Gay (19:32):
I have not. I know my wife has and enjoys them. I know that she gets massages. She's much better at the self-care than I am and call that stereotypical man/woman, husband/wife, whatever. I've thought about it, but I never have.
But since you ask, I do have to ask Joan this question. I am a 44-year-old guy. I am realizing that I need to start taking better care of my skin, particularly since I shaved my head. There's a lot of skin, especially on my face, and I've looked at, I've Googled, I've ChatGPT-ed, I've all these things of how do I take care of my skin aside from just body wash in the shower and that's about it.
Joan Gordon (20:11):
Cleanse, tone, moisturize.
Jon Gay (20:13):
Even for guys, because I'm the guy who's overwhelmed by this entire conversation. So, if you break it down for me, Joan, what do I need to do?
Joan Gordon (20:25):
Clean your skin. So, you use body wash for your face?
Jon Gay (20:31):
Yeah. I know.
(Laughter)
Joan Gordon (20:32):
Let's just break that down.
Jon Gay (20:34):
Yeah, I know.
Joan Gordon (20:35):
Body wash. It's not face wash. It's body wash. So, it's meant for the body. Let's talk about skin. Skin on your body is different than skin on your face. The skin underneath your eyes, much thinner. You can see veins. It's bluer. It's thin.
Skin on your lips, pink. Why? Because it's thin. Skin on your palms, you can beat the heck out of your palms and what's going to happen? Nothing. You can go like this, and it's thick. It's thick skin. Thick skin on your hands. Thick skin on your feet. It's different skin. Skin is your largest organ. It's different on all parts of your body. So, why are you using the same product that you would use all over your body on your face?
Jon Gay (21:34):
That's fair.
(Laughter)
Elara Hadjipateras (21:35):
But Joan, in his defense, I do think for whatever reason, maybe it has to do with hormones, men just seem to have an easier time maintaining a clear complexion than women.
Joan Gordon (21:46):
They have thicker skin. Men have thicker skin than women.
Jon Gay (21:50):
There's a joke there somewhere.
Diana Weil (21:51):
I know there is. Sometimes I'm like, maybe all of this is dumb, and we should be scaling everything way back because my husband who uses Dove body soap from the feet up has perfect skin.
Jon Gay (22:04):
See, that even got me. You got to start at the face and then work your way down. Not the opposite.
Elara Hadjipateras (22:08):
But maybe that's because we're still in our thirties and then it's going to catch up to him suddenly.
Joan Gordon (22:14):
We're very hormonal. We have a lot going on in our bodies. I mean, we have menstrual cycles. We go through pregnancy; we go through menopause. There's a lot of things that go on in our bodies. Not to say that men are not hormonal as well, because they are.
A man will notice a difference if they start using better skincare. I mean, I know with my boyfriend sometimes I'm like, “Let's mask.” And we mask together, and he'll tell me, “My face feels better.”
He has oily skin. I was like, “Well, you need to moisturize.” And he's like, “Why would I moisturize? I have oily skin. It's just going to make me oilier.” Well, guess what? He started to moisturize. And his skin is not as oily because what's happening is your skin is oily because it's overproducing oils because it's actually dry.
Diana Weil (23:03):
Jon, will you be our Guinea pig? Start a skincare routine and tell us what your skin is like.
Jon Gay (23:08):
(Laughs) Yeah. While you three talk, I'm going to run to my bathroom and see what I have. I did put something in my face. I'm going to run and see what it is while you three talk.
Joan Gordon (23:15):
Okay.
(Laughter)
Elara Hadjipateras (23:16):
Doesn’t even know what he put on his face.
Joan Gordon (23:17):
You’re funny. It's funny though because yeah, they men do use Dove soap. But my whole thing is with this whole soap thing is when you clean your showers or your bath or whatever and what are you cleaning out?
Diana Weil (23:36):
Soap scum.
Joan Gordon (23:37):
Soap scum.
Jon Gay (23:39):
Alright, I'm back.
Elara Hadjipateras (23:39):
Show us.
Jon Gay (23:40):
Again, just again not knowing anything as a guy. Aveeno Calm & Restore, nourishing, oat cleaner, sensitive skin. Hydrates, preserve skin's barrier. And I don't even know if this is for face or not.
Joan Gordon (23:51):
Yeah, that's a face cleaner.
Elara Hadjipateras (23:52):
Nourishing day cleanser. Look at you, Jon.
Jon Gay (23:54):
So, I started doing this in the shower along with the body wash. I'll just clean my face afterwards.
Joan Gordon (23:58):
Okay. So, you're doing it. So, you're using body wash on your face?
Jon Gay (24:01):
Well, I mean body wash and everything and then this on my face afterwards.
Joan Gordon (24:05):
That's good. Have you noticed a difference since you started using it or not at all?
Jon Gay (24:09):
Not a lot, but when I scrub it on and wash it off, my face feels better. I feel like maybe I'm doing something to maybe not be a wrinkled old man in 25 years. I don't know.
Joan Gordon (24:21):
Yeah. Is your skin as tight?
Jon Gay (24:25):
Joan, with all due respect, these are things that guys don't notice (laughs).
Joan Gordon (24:29):
Yeah, they don't. They don't.
Diana Weil (24:32):
Do you think that there is actually anything like, can we get rid of our wrinkles with product?
Joan Gordon (24:38):
I think you can minimize them.
Diana Weil (24:43):
By just specific products that are for age and wrinkles or by what?
Joan Gordon (24:50):
Well, most products right now have hyaluronic acid in it. So, hyaluronic acid retains moisture, and it helps plump up your skin. So, right there plumping up your skin, it's going to plump up your wrinkles.
Vitamin C, vitamin C is a retinol. It protects us from the environment. It's anti-aging, it's anti-acne. It helps with psoriasis. It's great a great thing to include in your skincare routine.
Ceramides, they help moisturize, they help restore your barrier. Copper peptides, they help boost collagen. There are so many different ingredients that are so good for your skin. So, yes, I do think that skincare can help minimize wrinkles.
I think that people that do nothing, think about all the people that lay out in the sun. Did you ever see that picture of the of the truck driver? It was a woman.
Elara Hadjipateras (25:56):
Yeah.
Joan Gordon (25:57):
You have, right?
Elara Hadjipateras (25:58):
Yes.
Joan Gordon (25:59):
So, half of her face was always in the sun because it was at the window and half of her face was never in the sun. And she has two different sides of her face because of the environmental pollutants.
Elara Hadjipateras (26:15):
I think something else that is pretty interesting about this is that these products that have these ingredients that are anti-wrinkle, anti-aging tend to be more expensive.
I've gone into Joan and kind of been like, “Hey, do I need to be using these expensive products preventatively to keep myself from getting wrinkles?” To which your answer has been no. And I've found in the past when I have used these really heavy-duty products for anti-aging, wrinkling. It has made my skin break out when I don't normally break out. Which I think is kind of counterintuitive where you can overdo it with these products, right?
Joan Gordon (26:51):
Yes. You don't want to do too much, and you don't want to do too much of the same thing. And that's a lot of times what people don't realize either. You could be putting on a night cream, just things that have the same ingredients and you're overdoing it. It's too much of one thing.
Diana Weil (27:14):
So, I get really confused with vitamin C, hyaluronic acid, there are all these things and a lot of them seem to do the same thing. Should you really just pick one of them to do … are there benefits to doing all of the different ingredients that do the same thing? Or should you really just pick one of them?
Joan Gordon (27:30):
Well, it's hard to just pick one of them because no product just has one ingredient. They usually have a mixture of all the ingredients. If you're exfoliating, you're going to want something with salicylic acid or glycolic acid or benzoyl peroxide. But if you want mostly anything nourishing these days has hyaluronic acid and that’s Elara, something that I wanted to say. A lot of people buy hyaluronic acid serum.
Elara Hadjipateras (28:02):
Yep.
Joan Gordon (28:03):
I never found that necessary because most of the products that you buy now have hyaluronic acid. So, why do you need that extra? I don't know. To me it's a waste of money. But spend your money someplace else.
Elara Hadjipateras (28:17):
Yep. Waste of money, extra step. And I found that it feels like there's just too much stuff on my skin at that point. There is such thing as once again, too much of a good thing like you're saying.
Joan Gordon (28:28):
Too much of a good thing.
Elara Hadjipateras (28:29):
Which then I guess leads me to my question about different skincare treatments. So, Joan, I don't know if you knew this about me, but I used to be a smoker. Which at some point I started feeling like I had smoker lines around my lips, which I was horrified by in my early 30s.
So, when I was over living in Copenhagen, I looked into what are these kind of not so invasive skincare treatments I can do to remove these wrinkle lines and things like that. So, I got into this bit of a cycle of doing microneedling treatments where I would go in and do a microneedling treatment and then four to six weeks later I would do a vitamin C facial treatment where it was like nourishing and then, go back to doing my micro needling treatments.
And I kind of went through four cycles of that and into a maintenance where I would do it just twice a year. And then I even was crazy and did a few Fraxel treatments, which I don't know if anyone listening has heard of a Fraxel treatment, but they are so painful.
Diana Weil (29:29):
What are they?
Joan Gordon (29:30):
Did you notice a difference?
Elara Hadjipateras (29:31):
I did notice a difference though. Boy, oh boy, it definitely worked, but it was so painful. It's the only time in my life where I've gotten a facial treatment where I have swatted someone's hand away and say, “Get the f*ck away from me.” Yeah. Which is not like me.
Joan Gordon (29:44):
I heard the CO2 laser is like that as well. I've actually never had a laser treatment. They scare me (laughs). But I do hear that they do work. I mean, they're burning your skin off.
Elara Hadjipateras (29:58):
They're burning your skin off. It's this little machine that tracks back and forth. And so, the first time it goes by it's like, kind of just feels like something hot on your skin. And then they kind of track back and forth and back and forth in a given section let's say five or six times. And by that fifth or six time it's intense. It feels like little beads-
Joan Gordon (30:17):
It's aggressive.
Elara Hadjipateras (30:18):
Are just stinging you like 12 at once in a given place. And it was particularly really intense around, like you said, where you have thinner skin, so around the lips, around the eyes.
Joan Gordon (30:28):
Neck.
Elara Hadjipateras (30:29):
Super brutal. Yeah. And the neck. I didn't get my neck done. But some people do it for the neck tightening, which is actually what led me to do it as a friend of mine was telling me how her father had gotten it done and it completely transformed his neck and any wrinkle lines. And I thought, “That's what I want.”
Joan Gordon (30:44):
I've done micro needling, and I think it's great. The downtime, there is none really. You look a little red the first day, the second day it, you're a little less red. But I mean, I know that with laser, especially Fraxel, you can look like a nightmare.
Elara Hadjipateras (31:02):
You look like a tomato whose skin is sloughing off for about a week to two weeks.
Joan Gordon (31:07):
Some people even scab.
Elara Hadjipateras (31:09):
They scab. Yeah. Because you basically just burned off a layer of your skin. So, I would do it in the dead of Copenhagen winter where I wasn't out in any daylight. And I could just put a ton of moisturizer on and avoid the sun for two, three weeks. Jon, do you know what microneedling facials are?
Jon Gay (31:27):
No. But the term terrifies me.
Joan Gordon (31:29):
So, I always say picture a highlighter. And the tip of the highlighter has a bunch of needles on it. You can do medical grade or you … I mean, I do something called micro puncture, which doesn't penetrate into the dermis because as an esthetician we can only work with the epidermis and there's five layers of that and you can't go below that.
So, if you want medical grade, which is a nice way to really puncture down into the dermis, stimulate collagen production. I notice a big difference with my face with that. The tone, texture, youthfulness and everything, so-
Elara Hadjipateras (32:10):
You're making me want one Joan. See I'm an addict.
Joan Gordon (32:13):
I know. I want another one too. However, laser can be really risky with people with darker skin tones because darker skin tones have more melanin. And if you injure yourself with darker melanin, you actually are risking yourself for hyperpigmentation. Which is scary too because that's really hard to get rid of.
Elara Hadjipateras (32:40):
So, the one time I had a very bad reaction to a facial treatment was the time I got something called dermaplane.
Joan Gordon (32:48):
Oh really?
Elara Hadjipateras (32:48):
You know what dermaplaning is?
Joan Gordon (32:49):
You got bumps. Did you get red bumps?
Elara Hadjipateras (32:51):
I got them all over. Yeah. So, I've never been the type of person who has a ton of acne. I mean, I'll get the — what do you call them? Like occasions, special occasions, that's where they appear around my chin or on my forehead area or like when I work out around my hairline. And I got this treatment called dermaplaning, where basically it's what, it's almost looks like a laser. No, like a blade. It looks like a super thin blade.
Joan Gordon (33:14):
It's a scalpel.
Elara Hadjipateras (33:15):
It's a scalpel. Yeah. Right. That sounds fun.
Joan Gordon (33:17):
It’s a medical grade scalpel.
Elara Hadjipateras (33:19):
And it just sloughs off a layer of your skin and also like the little hairs on your face. And I guess I have a lot of little hairs on my face, and I was told that I have a lot of little hairs on my face, and I was like “Oh geez, that can't be good. Take them off,” even though I'm a mammal and I should have hairs on my face.
And I got a crazy reaction, maybe it has to do with the medications I was on at the time, and I just was covered in all these little cystic zits. Have I ever shown you a picture, Diana?
Diana Weil (33:45):
No.
Elara Hadjipateras (33:45):
Jon, I can even maybe find it and you can show it during the podcast right now. But it is crazy. We're just talking like loaded up. I was so self-conscious. I didn't like going out.
Joan Gordon (33:56):
How long did that last?
Elara Hadjipateras (33:57):
It was about two months, honestly until it was all gone.
Joan Gordon (33:59):
Wow.
Elara Hadjipateras (33:59):
It was super bad. I did it at beginning of October and I remember up until like Christmas, like around that time it kind of just lingered because like you said, I got obsessed with like, “How do I get rid of this?”
And I kind of just was overdoing one product, overdoing another product, trying to do everything at once. And my skin was just like, what are you doing to me? Please stop.
And then finally when I kind of just took a break and just focused on a milk cleanser, focused on just drinking water and simply moisturizing my skin, it finally calmed down like by the time January rolled around. But it really turned me off of honestly facials and-
Joan Gordon (34:39):
I know. Yeah, sure. I don’t blame you.
Elara Hadjipateras (34:40):
More intense things for a while. Yeah. For about eight months, I didn't get a facial.
Joan Gordon (34:44):
It depends also what she did beforehand. Did she over exfoliate you? You probably had some sort of dermatitis. It was probably dermatitis of some nature, like inflammatory dermatitis or inflammatory rosacea after getting all those little bumps in here.
Elara Hadjipateras (35:04):
It was bad.
Diana Weil (35:05):
Joan, when someone comes in with fillers, can you feel that like in their skin? Can you tell where the filler is?
Joan Gordon (35:15):
No, not if it's done well. I mean, I'm dealing with pretty high-end clientele, so I'm sure they're not getting treatments that aren't done right or well. I do have people that come in like the day after they get Botox, and I send them on their way. I am like, “I'm not touching you.”
I mean, it's kind of amazing to me that people … I really don't like to touch people after they did Botox for at least two weeks, fillers two weeks or more because I can move it. I am about facial massage and creating that microcirculation underneath your skin and yeah, I'm not moving it.
You can move it and get droopy eye. And it's amazing to me how mad people get, “Took me forever to get this appointment.” I'm like, “I'm sorry.”
Elara Hadjipateras (36:10):
Do you feel like if you've started doing Botox and you've started doing fillers, you kind of at some point reach this equilibrium where you have to keep doing it or if you suddenly stopped, it would create a lot of sagging or aging because you've just pumped it with so much stuff?
You've been doing Botox for so long. Have you ever encountered that with a client and they're just kind of like, “Hey, I'm over this, I've been pumping my face with all this stuff for the last 10 years, but my skin it's not feeling good over the last six months. Can you please help me kind of bring it back to it a better natural balance in equilibrium, with products or with facials?”
Joan Gordon (36:48):
It would not be feeling good from Botox?
Elara Hadjipateras (36:51):
Or just from fillers and Botox. So, say you do it, you kind of overdo it and you've put a lot of stuff in your face and you suddenly just stop because they tell you things like you have to keep … you do it every six months or you do it every nine months, or you do it every year and you have to just kind of keep it up.
Joan Gordon (37:07):
Continuously.
Elara Hadjipateras (37:09):
Continuously do it.
Joan Gordon (37:09):
Well, it's prophylactic.
Elara Hadjipateras (37:11):
Yeah. I would just think, especially when it comes to fillers, that is going in your face. There's so like an actual volume being filled up in my cheeks. So, if I'm not putting said product in my-
Joan Gordon (37:22):
So, you go from a size six to a size eight and then you lose weight, and you still have your size eight face but now you're back to a size six. So, it's going to-
Elara Hadjipateras (37:32):
Yes. Would that happen?
Joan Gordon (37:34):
It can, sure. That's why you have to not overdo it. You want to everything in moderation and when you stop doing Botox, your wrinkles are going to come back. It's paralyzing your muscles. So, when you stop paralyzing your muscles, you're going to be able to flex. So, that's going to be the same.
Fillers, yeah, your face can sag. That's why people get facelifts. Facelifts are happening more and more now. We're all vain. There's a lot of vanity out there. Right?
Diana Weil (38:12):
I know. It's like when you talk about the things that we do, it's wild.
Elara Hadjipateras (38:15):
It's wild when you think about it, right?
Diana Weil (38:18):
(Laughs) I know.
Joan Gordon (38:20):
Yeah. But they have all these amazing treatments now. All these plastic surgeons can do all these non-invasive facelifts now from the deep plane and the platysma and they just like pull it up just tiny bit and it makes such a big difference.
I follow a lot of them on Instagram and they don't like fillers because they say it causes problems for them during surgery.
Diana Weil (38:51):
Joan, I'm jealous that Elara has found you and you are obviously such a knowledgeable esthetician. And I feel like, I've gotten facials every now and then I don't always trust the person who's giving me … I'm like, “Okay, do you actually know what you're doing or is this just like you're touching my skin and recommending the product that you feel like you have to recommend?”
What advice do you have for someone who wants to find a really good esthetician and get facials that are very tailored to their — just a … on facial? How do we find “you” where we live?
Elara Hadjipateras (39:24):
Move to Greenwich.
(Laughter)
Joan Gordon (39:25):
I think the first thing is get a good skincare line. Where I work, ongoing training is super important for the lines that I represent. Elara knows that sometimes I'm out for like three, four days in training.
If you go to a place that carries higher end products, you know that they have to get trained. So, for example, Biologique, I know that they've actually taken away their line from certain studios, certain spas, certain salons, because they're not following protocols.
You want someone, to go to, that understands each product and what that product is doing for you. So, I think the first thing you want to do is find a place with a skincare line that you might be interested in, and then you know that those people are getting trained.
Elara Hadjipateras (40:25):
I think something that was really important to me, and one of the reasons why I gravitated towards Joan as a facialist is when I went in for my first facial with her, I felt like she was just educating me the whole time.
She wasn't just slathering things on my face and saying, “Relax, just melt away this hour and fall asleep.” She was giving me a play by play of like, I'm doing this for this reason. This feels like this because it's cleansing and also keeping yourself moisturized. I'm going to do a combination of this serum and that serum to address that and that because your skin is looking dry.
Before she even touched my skin, she brought out the big amplifier. She put on the light and really looked at my skin and just talked to me. So, kind of like when you find a really good doctor or any integrative medicine or any sort of expert in your life, they just talk to you about what's going on. How's your skin been lately? How do you feel about it? What have you been doing?
Over the past year, because I've gone through pregnancy and postpartum, my skin has been very dry. So, I perpetually am like, I'm sleep deprived. I'm probably not drinking enough water. I'm stressed out more than usual.
So, my skin, it's drier. It's a bit more dull, compared to normal. I mean, my nutrients have just been stripped from myself while I was breastfeeding. And so, Joan would ask me all of that and cater to that specifically.
Versus the times, say I've been traveling and I've gotten a facial at a spa. And you can tell they must have like a sheet of just the steps of what they do. And they just go through the motions of just using these products and they don't even think twice to use something different or to deviate.
And so, I think it's very important before you book the appointment, just that there is a bit more of a personalized, specialized approach. Do I think that it's going to be more expensive? Yes, I do, but I do think that it's better to go that route and get facials less often, say get them seasonally, than to be getting them, I don't know, every six weeks and have it just be kind of this like cookie cutter, Hydrafacial, for example, that people are very into.
Hydrafacials are very popular. It's kind of just this device that you use. There are just formulaic serums that they put on your face. People like it. You go in and out within 30 minutes, bing-bing-boom. I think that that works well for people. I don't know if they have a really regimented skincare routine at home.
Joan Gordon (42:51):
I call it the glow and go.
Elara Hadjipateras (42:52):
Glow and go, exactly. It's great for before an event, but it's not going to be innovative or changing to your routine or any way. And you're not going to come out of there with any new knowledge as far as like, hi, I'm going to be more conscious about using toner. I'm going to be more conscious about …
Like Jon, I'm going to start moisturizing. I'm going to start toning, or I'm going to start moisturizing. Maybe not both. Maybe not both, but maybe he's going to start moisturizing after he cleanses his face. And I think every time, like Joan says, you go and maybe you're going to pick up one thing, even though she's giving you 10 or 15 things in that hour.
Joan Gordon (43:27):
Very good, Elara.
Elara Hadjipateras (43:28):
Did I learn? Yeah. I've been listening.
Joan Gordon (43:31):
It's true. There's so much out there. And you do want somebody that — I take pride in my job because people are coming to me to look good, to feel good. A face is the first thing that you see on a person. You meet them and that's the first thing that you see.
And a lot of times, I'm sure people come up to you, Elara, and say, “What are you doing? Your skin looks great.” And then it snowballs after that.
So, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the … I was at a spa and there were times that I could do 12 people in a day. And I was exhausted at the end of the day, but it was the formula. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do.
And I don't like that anymore at all. I like a much more personalized approach. Everyone is different. Every skin is different. Stress has a huge factor on your skin. You're releasing cortisol. Your healing is slower. It's all different. Diet plays a big part in your skincare.
So, there's so many variants. The concept of, “you are what you eat” is very much true.
Diana Weil (44:53):
I'm ready to go and fly back and come and see you. And I want more products. And I mean, it is addicting (laughs).
So, we always like to end with these two questions, and it doesn't have — just whatever you're feeling right now, but what is a life lesson that you have had to learn the hard way?
Joan Gordon (45:10):
Don't rush into things. Believe in yourself, believe in your decisions. I’m 57, I’ve went through a lot. I'm divorced. My son is graduating from college, and he had a heart defect when he was born. So, I was an advocate for him his whole life.
So, being an advocate, having faith that things are going to work out, trying not to spiral. It's also, I guess being human. Life is hard, but we have to believe in ourselves and know that things are going to work out.
Elara Hadjipateras (45:55):
And then something that just comes to mind right now doesn't have to be this mantra that you live by. But is there any piece of advice that's kind of been in the back of your head lately?
Joan Gordon (46:10):
A really important thing that I have learned as I got older is staying away from toxicity. You're going to come across people in your life that are going to want to bring you down. And they don't even think that they're doing it intentionally, but they can be.
And recognizing it, and recognizing to get away from it, because it's bringing you into darker places or places that you don't want to be. And you just being the best version of yourself and evolving and recognizing your infinity loop of nonsense that you can produce in your head and trying to get out of that loop and break away from it. And toxicity is one of them.
I've been around a lot of toxic people in my life, and sometimes you rely on them not realizing that you rely on them. And then once you get rid of them, you almost feel like you can breathe. And that has really taught me a lot.
I'm pretty much a person that I like my select few people, my daily people. I'm not a big group type of person. I'm not one of those people that has a gazillion friends. I have a birthday; I don’t have to have 50 people there. If I have my two or three, I'm good.
So, I've learned to be that type of person, to have my closer relationships, the ones that are more meaningful for me. And I think friends are super important.
Diana Weil (47:43):
Quality over quantity.
Elara Hadjipateras (47:44):
Quality over quantity. Joan, our first podcast we ever recorded, if you ever want to take a listen, it's all about the science of friendship and how there's an actual scientist who did research around this. And it is about quality over quantity and just having that small nuclear group of those three to four people that you check in with every day and that’s what it’s about.
Joan Gordon (48:06):
A hundred percent. Because we all have family, but we don't choose family. We choose our friends; we choose our people. And you might be able to rely on family somewhat, but you can really rely on your friends more.
I always say that about the holidays sometimes I'm like, why does holidays always have to be with family when they stress you out? Sometimes it's I guess the Friendsgiving, what is it? Friendsgiving?
Elara Hadjipateras (48:36):
Friendsgiving, yeah.
Joan Gordon (48:38):
That's the new thing. It's nice. Yeah. Friends are important. People who you surround yourself with are important. So, surround yourself with good people and I think you'll get better results from yourself.
Diana Weil (48:50):
Sage advice.
Elara Hadjipateras (48:51):
Sage advice. Well, I always love the time we spend together, Joan, so-
Joan Gordon (48:55):
Yeah, me too Elara.
Diana Weil (48:57):
Joan, if someone wanted to come and get a facial with you, where would they find you? How could they find you? How could they get a facial with you?
Joan Gordon (49:04):
I work at the Delamar Hotel in Greenwich, Connecticut. And best way to get an appointment with me is probably to call, we have a plethora of choices of facials. Start out with the most basic and go from there.
Start out with the custom 60 minute, we start out there, we introduce ourselves to one another, and I learn about you, you learn about me, and then we go from there. And then the next time we really can take a deep dive into more targeting exactly what you need for your skin.
Diana Weil (49:43):
Joan, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. I feel I'm going to go through my skincare cabinet right now (laughs). And we have a lot that we didn't get to, so we would love to have you back on some point.
Joan Gordon (49:55):
Sure. Thank you for having me.
Voiceover (49:57):
Sip, savor, and live well with new episodes of The Matcha Guardians every Wednesday. Follow our show for free on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you're listening right now. Leave your questions and comments below. Find us on Instagram at the Matcha Guardians or click on matcha.com.